Mark.g Switch

Was very involved in Malaysia Today recently - considering the heat of Malaysia politics at the wake of the 12th General Election. Ran into an article entitled: 'Comments on the Best of Muslims' - following the comments I just had to say something. Everything is posted on the link here.

Can even read the comments mrgoh (me) versus mimag2005(the muslim).

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mrgoh:

Arguments about God (or lack of) is as a result of man's incapacity to comprehend the enormity of the idea of God (or lack of). It is in vane to argue about God or lack of one.

To many they see God as an image of themselves and one who created the universe. God to them create man in the image of himself hence they think that God look alot like a man. Some call it Siddharta Gautama, some call it Jesus Christ, and Prophet Muhammad, Ra God of the Sun, etc, etc. However, one this is common on all of these variations of the imagery of God that is it is Infinite.

I am an engineer by profession, and I have quite alot of exposure in math such as algebra, geometry, calculus, etc etc with varying fundamentality and difficulty. I have done more math than the average joe. The reason why I bring this up is that I want to pull something that I studied in math that shares a common but basic element with the concept of God: That is the idea of Infinite.

Infinite is not a number or a single solution or solutionS for that fact. Infinite is a concept that is intangible and difficult for most to grasp. It is not a large number, it is not a big number that never stops growing, or any other explaination some college math professor teaches you - infinite is an abstract theory. There is a huge inclination for people to think and function in terms of right or wrong, yes or no, 1 or 0, black or white, etc etc, we are obsessed at classifying nature into these discrete ideas such that it is tangible to the human mind - I fittingly call this Discrete Thinking. Hence the argument like does God exists or not arises with heated debates. People have huge inclination to classify things either one or another but not both and certainly not in between. However, nature/universe/ of what have you do not exists in Discrete - nature is Continuous. There is no black and white in nature, nature is just what it is and quite often than not it is grey. 99.9% of people are incapable of Continuous Thinking - in the concept that mass is energy and energy is mass, particle are waves and waves are particles, time is space and space is time, that nothing is all black and nothing is all white, etc etc. The best mathematicians in the world cannot truly understand the meaning of infinity - all they have is a mirage of an abstract idea which is what I have. Infinite to me is just a vague shadow of the real meaning. It is indeed an element that exists in the Continuous Thinking and hence difficult to grasp. But infinite is just that - continuous!

Debating about religion will inevitably come to a debate about what is God and the creation of the universe. Some say and even insists that God created the universe - this is debatable of course which inevitably brings to the point of if God exists. But I know this is true that the universe along with space and time began with the Big Bang. A theory made popular by Einstein and is widely accepted as the beginning of space and time. Theoretical physicst are in a struggle to coherently fuse the theory of relativity and quantum mechanics to understand the singularity of the Big Bang. A new theory called the String Theory is developed to bridge this gap however too much are unknown about it. Much are still debated. In between all of these hardcore physics, a new theory of arises that sneaks in the story about God: Intelligent Design. Intelligent Design is a so called 'theory' that an intelligent being designed everything - in layman's term it is Genesis! ID is religion-in-disguised and presented as scientific to be regarded as a scientific faculty. However, all physics and scientist denounce ID as a scientific theory. ID is a product of faith of the masses and faith is worthless in science. Faith is in the believe from one with no evidence, prove or clue to the credibility of that believe - this of course is everything science is not. There is no evidence of the existence of God and there is no evidence of the absence of God. There is no evidence that God create the universe and there is no evidence that God did not create the universe. This is the concept of Continuous that I was talking about - the idea of the GREY where things are neither in existence nor existence.

My best approximation as to what God is TO THE PEOPLE around me is that God is just symbolic. It is an idea of infinite that is far beyond human's capacity to contemplate. Forget about what people told you what God is, whether God exists, whether God created the universe, and the definition they tell you about God - because the fact is that nothing will be INFINITELY FURTHER than the truth than that. Why? Because the idea of infinite and the concept of it could not be conjured up in a finite mind like yours or mine. To suggest that infinity solidifies in finiteness - is utter arrogance and ignorance. Whatever solidifies in the humble man's finite mind has to be finite - hence it cannot be God. I am not saying that God does not exists or that God exists - I am saying the thought that you call God is FINITE. To debate about the existence and non-existence of God in this context hence is in vain. Whatever you believe about God (or believe that there is NO God) could never be ever futher than the truth. The concept of God exists in the Continuous Realm where things are neither black nor white but just grey.

So,
Does God exists? Did God create the Universe? What is the definition of God?
My answer is this:
I am not so ignorantly and brutally ARROGANT to even contemplate of such a thing as a God. Let alone answer those questions. In laymen's term the answer is neither a yes nor a no.

If what ever arguments I made above make no sense - GREAT! It means I did a good job. Because a concept as obscure as the existence of God is just beyond a finite being like you and me could ever comprehend. The fact that it made no sense means I have just presented an abstract idea just as it is: Abstract! It is the closest approximation of the real thing as we can ever get anyway.

So it is futile to argue about God and religion since religion are based on the idea of the existence of God. Strip away the God element in religion and all you have are just teachings, lessons and a little bit of history.

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mimag2005

Dear Mr Goh,

Good morning.

Thank you for a nice presentation…BUT…

I beg to differ on few points

01)As far as Muslims (whether good or bad) are concern Prophet Muhammad is not GOD..
Everyday atleast 5 times, Muslims are reminded that…there is no God(s) except ALLAH and Prophet Muhammad is the Messenger of ALLAH.

This daily reminder acts as a “ safety latch” so that Muslims don’t commit same mistake as their elder brothers of other faiths.

02)You are putting forward SCIENTIFIC THEORIES to prove/disprove the existence of God.
You, me as well as others know that Scientific Theories are not reliable as Science had made U- Turns in the past.

03)My dear Mr Goh, the theory of the Big Bang is no longer a theory.. It is an ESTABLISH SCIENTIFIC FACT..!!.

04) I will be quoting few verses from the Holy Qur’an confirming ALLAH’s existence through HIS creation of the Universe, the Heavens, Earth and everything above, below and within (including you, me and ALL)

05)Allah Almighty Said:"We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and INSIDE THEIR SELVES, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things? (The Noble Quran, 41:53)
06) Origin of Universe….Allah Almighty said: "Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke...(The Noble Quran, 41:11)"

Very Important Discovery:

A new star forming out of a cloud of gas and dust (nebula), which is one of the remnants of the "smoke" that was the origin of the whole universe. (The Space Atlas, Heather &Henbest, pg 50)

07) Allah Almighty Said: "And when the heaven splitteth asunder and becometh ROSY LIKE PAINT - (The Noble Quran, 55:37)"

The Noble Quran on the Origin of the Universe
ONLY ISLAM CLAIMS THAT THE UNIVERSE WAS ORIGINATED FROM DUST AND HOT GAS OR SMOKE
Another Very Important Discovery:

For more fotos Visit http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap991031.html
See ALLAH’s Beautiful Fireworks Display in the Galaxies
"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." ( Qur'an, 51:47)

"The universe starts with a Big Bang, expands to a maximum dimension, then recontracts and collapses (to the Big Crunch); no more awe-inspiring prediction was ever made." Quotation from Charles W. Misner, Kip S. Thorne and John A. Wheeler in "Gravitation", W. H. Freeman, San Francisco, 1973, page 1196.
Visit : http://www.evidencesofcreation..._01_02.htm

Alfred Kroner : Professor of the Department of Geosciences, University of Mainz, Germany.
Professor Kroner is one of the world's most famous geologists said…."Thinking where Muhammad came from... I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case."

Noble Qur’an 55:30…..He made the earth egg-shaped…..
09) Life originated from water in the Noble Quran:
"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (The Noble Quran, 21:30)"
"It is He Who has created man from water: then has He established relationships of lineage and marriage: for thy Lord has power (over all things). (The Noble Quran, 25:54)"
"And God has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. God creates what He wills for verily God has power over all things. (The Noble Quran, 24:45)" ttp://www.chem.duke.edu/~jds/cruise_
01) http://ecademy.agnesscott.edu/Physics&Astronomy/
SP01/A120/notes01/formearth/earth1.htm
Please do a word search for "Life as we know it originated in water" in this article.
02) http://sln.fi.edu/qa97/biology
/biopoint2.html
03) ttp://www.chem.duke.edu/~jds/cruise _
chem/Exobiology/sites.html
"Protoplasm is the basis of all living matter, and 'the vital power of protoplasm seems to depend on the constant presence of water' (Lowsons' Text-book of Botany, Indian Edition. London 1922, p. 23).
Text books of Zoology are also clear on the point. For example, see T.J. Parker and W.A. Haswell, Textbook of Zoology, London, 1910, Vol I. p. 15: 'Living protoplasm always contains a large amount of water.' " [2]
10) “Of course, We will soon let those who reject Our revelations, burn in the fire of hell. As often as their hide burns (to a char), We will replace it with a new skin for them, so they may taste the torment (all over again). Allah is the Almighty, the All-Wise! “( Noble Quran 4:56 )
Science confirm that Skin also acts as pain receptors…..!!
Professor Tejatat Tejasen : Chairman of the Department of Anatomy and is the former Dean of the faculty of Medicine, University of Chiang Mai, Chiang Mai, Thailand. studied various articles concerning the Qur'an and modern embryology……….
"In the last three years, I became interested in the Qur'an... From my studies and what I have learned throughout this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Qur'an fourteen hundred years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means.

Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a messenger who relayed this truth which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the one who is eligible creator. This creator must be God, or Allah.
11) There are many more Scientific Discoveries of recent times which was revealed by ALLAH , for mankinds’ benefit, in the Holy Quran 1400 years ago.e.g
- The Miracle of the Rain, Thunder and Electrical "fertilization" caused by winds in the Noble Quran!
- The moon's S-shaped orbit around earth is shaped like a branch of a date tree, mentioned in the Noble Quran and confirmed by Science!
- The sun rays that we see during the day are different from the ones seen in space!
- The skinning of the day from the night Miracle.
- The Motion of Earth in the Noble Quran.
- The Ozone layer is a protective ceiling to earth.
- The Ozone layer is able to heal itself from damage - mentioned in the Noble Quran and confirmed by science!
- Iron was sent down from space.
- Darkness in the seas and internal waves in the Noble Quran, confirmed by science.
- The Noble Quran on Human Embryonic Development.
- The human DNA being 99% the same, and the DNA of the pigs and monkeys being very close ours are directly supported in the Noble Quran.
- Water on earth shall vanish - mentioned in the Noble Quran and confirmed by Science!
- The cracking of the moon mentioned in the Noble Quran and confirmed by science! Images of the moon's fault line (crack).....and many more….

12) I agree with you that ALLAH, THE ONE AND ABSOLUTE CREATOR is beyond Mankind’s comprehension..!
Last but not least, I leave you with this message coming DIRECTLY from non other than the Creator Himself ..!!
Noble Quran Ch 6 v. 27

…..” If only you could see them when they are made to stand by the hellfire. They will say, “Oh misery to us, if we could only return (to the life of this world)! This time around we would not deny the signs of our Lord. We would be the believers!”

God Bless..!